While there have been many combo and OTK decks throughout the history of Hearthstone, such as Quest Mage, Inner Fire Priest, and Anyfin Paladin, the meta has never been completely defined by combo decks. Until now, with the release of the Boomsday Project and the horrifying amount of success that these decks have found on the ladder.
Expansions typically begin with aggressive decks ruling the meta, since control decks often take longer to become refined. But we’re only a week into Boomsday, and it already feels like combo decks have a stranglehold on the game that not even aggro decks can compete with. I can’t remember a single point in Hearthstone’s history that has had so many viable OTK combo decks – and yet here we are.
If you’re a fan of combo decks, you probably love Hearthstone right now. But is a meta ruled by OTK combo decks good for the game? Blizzard has historically shied away from promoting popular decks that instantly kill an opponent out of nowhere, such as when they nerfed Worgen OTK Warrior years ago. But even with that historical trend, I find myself regularly staring down three different OTK archetypes on the ladder these days.
And I hate it.
The current meta has soured me on the game so much that I don’t see myself playing anything but Arena for the foreseeable future. Let’s look at the three previously mentioned archetypes to see why.
Malygos
Malygos has long been the linchpin and premier representative of combo decks in the Standard format, due to his status as a Classic card. His high mana cost usually prevents him from being played fairly – instead, he is often cheated out through cards such as Ancestor's Call, Kobold Illusionist, and Aviana/Kun the Forgotten King. While Malygos only began to have a strong presence on ladder recently with the popularity of Malygos Druid at the end of the Witchwood meta, he is finding success in Rogue and Shaman these days as well due to Necrium Blade, Necrium Vial, and Eureka!.
Malygos’s sister, Alexstrasza, has often been seen as a card that should be rotated to the Hall of Fame. However, Ice Block’s rotation accomplished a similar desired effect of nerfing Freeze/Quest Mage. These days, I’ve heard many more people recommending that Malygos be rotated at the end of the year. As a card only used in OTK combos, Malygos can be incredibly frustrating to play against – so I understand that sentiment. Rotating Malygos would let Blizzard regulate the combo decks in Standard much easier, since everything else rotates at some point.
Shudderwock
Originally theorized to dominate the meta before Witchwood’s release, Shudderwock combo decks actually floundered early on during the Witchwood meta. However, the large set of nerfs and further refinement of the deck eventually solidified its status as a Tier 1 deck. Unlike many other combo decks, Shudderwock typically requires at least two turns to kill an opponent – but the resulting effects of spamming Lifedrinker, Hagatha the Witch board wipes, and Glacial Shard freezes is usually enough to prevent the opponent from ever accomplishing anything again.
Like other OTK decks, Shudderwock creates an unfun experience for the opponent. Thankfully, a number of the cards required for Shudderwock combos to succeed, such as Saronite Chain Gang, Glacial Shard, and Grumble, Worldshaker will all rotate out of Standard next year, so there’s an end in sight. Tempo Shudderwock decks also seem to be picking up in popularity. However, there is one final combo archetype that threatens to rule Standard until 2020.
Topsy-Turvy
This is not that deck. APM Priest has turned out to be much more of a meme deck than expected, due to the high complexity of playing the combo and the deck, and the fact that Priests have a much more reliable OTK combo with Mecha’thun: Destroyer of the Standard Format.
Mecha’thun
I think it’s safe to say that Mecha'thun has been the standout card from the Boomsday Project. Before release, I heard so many streamers say something along the lines of “It’s a cool idea that will make for sweet YouTube highlights, but it will never be a competitive deck.”
Just goes to show you once again that streamers aren’t always right. Not only has Mecha’thun become a powerful card – but it’s been used successfully in over half of the classes. Since his release, I’ve seen Druid, Warlock, Rogue, Priest, and even Warrior all use Mecha’thun as their win condition. What’s even more horrifying than the card’s success in five classes is the fact that all five classes can reliably pull off the combo. And a number of the classes don’t even use any cards rotating out of Standard next year – meaning that Mecha’thun is here to stay until it rotates in 2020, or unless it gets nerfed.
The problem is: how does one go about nerfing Mecha’thun? The stats on the card don’t matter for most of the combos. The mana cost is as high as it can get, and it’s cheated out in decks such as Priest and Warrior anyways. And the effect of “win the game if you have nothing else” isn’t really nerfable in an easy way either. Nerfing all of the cards around Mecha’thun seems like an extremely poor way of dealing with the situation as well, since Blizzard would have to nerf cards across so many classes just for one neutral card to exist.
Blizzard’s OTK Hate (If Charge is Involved)
To illustrate the problem with OTK decks existing and being so popular, I’d like us to examine one of Blizzard’s least-favorite mechanics: Charge. Charge cards have frequently been a thorn in Blizzard’s side when it comes to balance. They’ve nerfed Leeroy, Charge! (multiple times), Force of Nature, and Warsong Commander over the years. They’ve even created the entirely new mechanic of Rush to serve as a new and improved form of Charge. Their reasoning was always that “being killed instantly from hand isn’t fun” and that “Hearthstone is at its best when the two opponents are interacting with each other”. Similar reasoning was also used when Quest Rogue was nerfed twice. Hearthstone is more fun when one player isn’t essentially playing Solitaire.
So how do we explain the current situation after seeing the historical trend against OTK charge decks? Combo decks might as well be OTK charge decks with a tad more flavor. The effect is the same – one player suddenly wins through a massive spike of damage, or through Mecha’thun’s effect, without any viable counterplay. Even classes with armor can’t survive Mecha’thun. Even if Mages still had Ice Block – they’d still die. Even if a Rogue is stealthed via Valeera the Hollow – they still die. Charge also had more counterplay via the ability to simply put more taunt minions in your deck. Combo decks have very little counterplay right now unless you’re playing Warlock, in which case both Gnomeferatu and Demonic Project are both incredibly strong additions to your deck. Dirty Rat was a great card against combo decks, but it’s gone now and there hasn’t been a suitable replacement yet. So at the moment, there’s not much you can do against combo decks except hope to burst them down as an aggressive deck (which isn’t reliable due to how durable Mecha’thun decks are built to be) or to play Warlock. Which isn’t a great state for the game to be in.
Conclusion
I’ll be frank – playing in the current meta is the least fun I’ve ever had with Hearthstone, and I’ve been playing since beta. The dominance of combo decks that can reliably beat aggressive decks has choked all enjoyment out of the game for me. And the worst part is that I have no clue how Blizzard can nerf the biggest offender of Mecha’thun.
Blizzard has consistently kept OTK decks in line for most of Hearthstone’s history, as seen through repeated charge nerfs and even some combo nerfs (such as Raza the Chained). I hope that they find some way to reel them back in sooner rather than later, or else the era of flesh will be on hold for the next few years.
How do you feel about the strength of these combo decks in the meta right now? Do you have any ideas how Mecha’thun could feasibly be nerfed? I’d love to hear your thoughts in the comments below.
The biggest issue of hearthstone since Gadgetzan for me is presence of deck against which u just concede on turn 1. It is completely not fun or interactive, idk why do they keep doing it every goddamn expancion.
Whatever the cards released and what archetypes end to refine the meta, before complaining we should also consider that, given the cards we have, there will always be some certain cards combinations that will be stronger than others. That is inevitable, as it is the necessary result that derives from the sole ecistence of cards. Hearthstone is not just playing a deck, but also considering the state of meta and try to track down its weaknesses so that you build a deck accordingly. There isn’t a deck with no weaknesses. But in order to do that, you shouldn’t rely on net decks. Just like i said, hearthstone is not limited to the match, but the overall insight and intelligence of the individual. As someone stated above, the decks that see play are the same no matter the rank. Considering that, why some stay at rank 25-20 while others hit legend with the exact same decks? It’s s the choise of tech inclusions and how well you pilot that deck. Some decks are gonna be stronger, combo, aggro, control, does not matter, one will be stronger, but at the same time has a weaknees. If you feel frustrated, blame yourself for not beeing able to track this and limit your options to just net decks. Furthermore, we already have an aggro meta, which made combo decks unviable, heavy control metal which left some aggro decks unviable, at any rate the archetypes who end up stronger, will leave some other archetypes out of play. But combo meta not being good? That’s just a subjective aesthitic proposition, hence it cannot even take a truth value, not to say about the idea of good itself. For a combo player it’s one of the best metas, like was msg for aggro players or knc or kft for control players.
It seems to me that there’s an obvious neutral card that everyone’s overlooking in the current meta that could very easily disrupt mecha’thun priest, as well as many of the other draw heavy decks…
It’s a pretty obvious choice considering that it was originally introduced as a disruption card for a very different meta… If I may shed some horrifically punny light on the matter. The card in question is ‘The Darkness.’
Which:
– disrupts Hemet/draw heavy decks (candles cost 4 and have to be drawn before the mech combo can be played)
– Put’s a 20/20 on the board which may happen inconveniently enough that it gets to swing
– generally disrupts turn time as candles take time to draw and activate
the other new addition to neutral that’s not getting any mention is seaforium bomber, which does similar draw/deck disruption alongside having fantastic burst potential. Likewise, the bombs generated cost 4, so not removed by hemet.
Rogue can synergise these with bounce, which I would hazard could put more than 30 damage worth of bombs into a deck before combos are ready to activate, and Warrior can utilize dead mans hand similarly, dropping 5/5s on board repeatedly and bombs that need removing.
These can of course be augmented with augmented Elekk, to double up the copies, and banksters/zola for even more copies.
I agree that we shouldn’t have a meta defined by one playstyle of net-deck. That absolutely sucks.
Nor should we have a meta defined by a bomber/elekk/darkneness package.
Overall I think these cards offer a ton of unexplored potential for midrage/control decks which can be just as useful as dirty rat.
Here’s an odd paladin midrange mech/bomber/prince Liam deck Idea I’ve come up with in response to this post
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I’m actually mucking about with a tempo-based Keleseth Rogue at the moment – featuring Seaforium Bomber; I’m getting about a 58% win rate with it at low ladder ranks – but the Bomber isn’t *that* great a card. It’s better when you’ve had an early Keleseth (or 2 from Shadowstep) as 6/6 or 7/7 for 5 mana is good – bonus points for having an Augmented Elekk on the board when you play it – but the bomb itself isn’t very reliable, even when you’ve dropped 4 or 5 of them in your opponent’s deck. It has won me a few games though (normally against Warlock).
The strength of the deck actually comes from the Faldorei Striders – especially if you can T3 Elekk -> T4 Strider; it’s quite possible to shuffle a dozen spiders into the deck which makes for ridiculous flood when you use Sprint.
And there’s always Leeroy with Cold Blood as a finisher.
I completely agree that some sort of distrupting tools have to be introduced in the game. I love midrange and control decks were you have to interact with the board and carefully use your resources. Control paladin for instance was and still is my favourite deck. Hence I even prefer combo-ish decks to aggro where you go face and hope the opponent doesn’t have an answer. Nevertheless, the problem are not deck types per se, but the lack of counterplay in some cases: like mecha’thun decks, shudderwock, togwaggle etc.
One thing to note tough is that I don’t consider malygos druid a true combo deck. It’s play style is more similar to control style with burst potential, similarly to well known “control mind blast priest”. In case of priest burst potential is 19 dmg, whereas in case of druid burst potential is 21 dmg (twig is easily countered). Not too different.
I completely agree with you about some things but not with all of them. The kind of meta that we have these days is kind of awkward for different reasons. First of all, the control’s archetype are almost completely gone, and that happens because they are almost always an autolost vs combo decks. Only warlock is the only reliable class that got some sort of counter to it, so it’s the only way to win those matchups. I think that the combo cards should not be nerfed, but some way to counter them should be introduced. If all combo decks were like Mecha’thun priest we wouldn’t even have problems, because, honestly, you have to burn trough all your deck and you hand before you can even pull it off. With and odd paladin or a heal zoolock it’s an autowin most of the times. The real problem here is druid, because his decks are an autowin against a lot of decks, and not only control. I am a main paladin and I have only paladin cards , but I have all of them in standard (I am a f2player so don’t blame me) so I do not have a complete understanding of the mechanics and of the meta, but in the paladin class there are a lot of different archtypes and I played all of them. I think that hs should treat OTK decks like they did with Exodia paladin. That deck is a very proactive deck, that tries to stall the board as much as possible, but the difficult part is that paladin has very few ways to do it. Equality, and the new shrink ray are just four removals, and you have to combine them with pyro and consacration to make them complete board clears. The point that I am trying to make is that OTK decks can be really fun to play and even fun to play against, because they are almost all of the times really diffiuclt to play. So, I think that spreading plague, ultimate canceration and so on are the real problem, not the cards that make the combo, such as malygos or mecha’thun. Hs just really needs some hand disruption tool really badly, and that is just a fact. Demonic project is not even half of the power of the dirty rat (I always thought that card was kind of too good) and is still one of the key cards of the new control warlock. What I would want to see is just a big nerf patch for druid and warlock, the two classess that in two different expansions received busted cards.
Give me combo and control anytime over boring aggro that takes little skill. Play your stuff on curve, go for board control for awhile and then face…the end…stupid meta when aggro is king
The thing is – combo completely pushes control out of the meta at the moment.
Agree, i stuck on rank 18 with my control warrior. And i’m facing lot of combo decks with i can do nothing. Literally nothing.
Because rank 18 is not a place were u can play reactive control deck, dude. It always have been that way.
Seems like there’s actually a pretty easy fix for this though: change Mecha’thun’s effect from “kill the other hero if you have no cards” to some damage dealing thing like “deal 35 damage if you have no cards”. It allows for more counterplay, like minions who give armour, or ice block (if you’re playing wild) and it’s easier to tweak the damage amount if it’s too weak/too powerful.
Combo decks constantly getting the tools to complete their required combo in a consistent fashion is troublesome. It means there are no real punishments for trying to establish such a greedy play. Aggro is meant to exploit this weakness to an extent and keep the checks and balances. However, the focus to a less interactive game is a result. Sure, combos are cool, but it doesn’t make that player superior for getting it to go off. Hearthstone at the roots should be a game about board interaction and decisions that actually matter. The old addage, “life is a resource” is thrown out the window now as classes like druid and warrior can amass insane amounts of additional life that craps on that idea. Poor classes like odd rogue and warlock utilize their health as a resource by means of controlling the board or drawing cards. It is their identity. It is completely insane that a druid can basically ramp without any ramification. It can literally do nothing for the first 2-3 turns while it ramps and still be ahead. There has to be a happy medium somewhere, as taunts are extremely good for the game to combat aggression and that’s why doomsayer and other cards like that deserve a place in the game. But the ability to cheat out bigger minions for lesser mana doesn’t do anything helpful for the game. There’s so much wrong right now in the meta that even though there’s lots of viable decks, the separation of the play styles are pretty weak as most are combo-centred and fit the same mold with same core of cards essentially.
“Poor classes like odd rogue and warlock utilize their health as a resource by means of controlling the board or drawing cards. It is their identity.” … that’s actually the thing I most object to, classes losing their identity – those classes with the strongest combo potential should *not* have incredibly strong defensive tools – e.g. Rogue and Druid (before KFT).
Historically they’re the two classes that could Mill or get things out early (Spells for Rogue and big monsters via ramp for Druid), they were also the strongest combo classes (though Inner Fire Priest could count as well – e.g. with Flying Machine in GvG) – but it came at the expense of having a fairly weak early game and limited durability which meant they were vulnerable to aggro.
Losing to OTK Rogue still feels “fair” to me – OK I got nuked from 27 health by a Kobold/Malygos Rogue yesterday – but I was playing a tempo rogue and had lethal next turn from Leroy so that game could have gone either way with slightly different card draw.
Having a Druid tank up, drop Spreading Plague then nuke you from orbit feels a little like there’s nothing you could have done all game.
The weird thing is that we face strong OTK or combo decks at rank 25… The game now has a huge player base, and everyone has dust to craft at least one deck, so they search for the best decks, copy them and start playing… At rank 15 I’ve faced a lot of Mechathun Priests and I see the players making rookie mistakes (meaning they are not pro), but I can’t beat them with any of my aggro decks…
It feals that, even for casual or new players, there’s no deck building anymore, no point thinking about your cards and building the best deck possible with them… everyone is just coping the best recipes available and playing with them, and if you dont do the same thing, you will just lose, over and over…
My point is, this kind of thing used to happen only at higher ranks…
I used to play MTG ten years ago, and back then I had a lot of fun building decks to counter the popular ones, I can’t do that in HS, my only option is to build a combo or OTK deck myself.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with a combo heavy meta. I think the only true problem is giving warlock the only anti-combo tech in the game. I honestly think that is just a bad design decision. If you are going to introduce several new cards that are meant for combo decks, you need to make sure there are appropriate neutral techs that have a chance at combating that.
Also I still think that EMP operative should have been “silence and destroy a mech” and cost one more mana. But even that doesn’t really help with C’thun or druid combos.
With Ben brode no longer being at the head of the design team, I think that Hearthstone is going to embrace balance in different ways. A longer eye on balance means that you give each style of deck sometime to be dominant. Some of us like otk combo decks. Let us enjoy it. It’s very much preferable to the Mindless Agro.
I don’t know why everyone’s saying brode leaving affects this set, considering they design a few sets ahead. Brodes influence won’t go away until the end of the year
And…Mechathun Priest mirror match must be so funny…It´s like “I burn all my cards and kill my minions faster than you”, “No, I burn my cards faster than you, go to action Hemet”…this is crazy…Blizzard please, wake up. I´m from Czech Republic, my money budget is tight, but I sent you about 250 dollars per year for ONE GAME, that´s 5500 czech krone, which is 1/4 from average monthly wage in Czech Republic, because i love the game.This is little for you ? And this solitaire decks are yours “Thank you” ? But if these OTK decks will rule the meta, then i early quit and start play f.e. Shadowverse or Elder Scrolls…This is sick 🙁
I agree, current OTK decks are just OP, boring and noobish. It´s not fun to play against and i think it´s not fun even play with…
My favourite deck of all-time was Malygos Miracle Rogue with Emperor Thaurissan, before Standard existed – yes it was an OTK deck but it required a lot of skill/luck to get to the OTK and could be utterly trounced by extreme aggro or even a simple Ice Block.
Druid could reliably do something similar for a short while with the Aviana/Kun combo (still can in Wild) – but it was almost as squishy as Rogue *before* KFT. Druid used to be all about BIG creatures and ramping to get them early… it had very few *cheap* Taunt minions to improve survivability. Now, however, Druid has the best of all worlds – cheap taunts, ramp, massive armour gain *and* lots and lots of card draw – everything to survive aggro and combo-kill control.
I actually think there are 2 problems here – the diluting of class identities (Druid really shouldn’t have cheap Taunts or warrior-levels of armour gain) and making OTK decks too available to all classes… they’re not really an issue when you’ve got to build a glass cannon.
Malygos is actually OK as it only works when there are cheap, direct damage spells to back it up *and* a way to cheat it out; which means it’s really only ideally suited to Rogue and Druid – both of which, historically, had a fairly weak early game and were vulnerable to getting Zerged. “Patching up” that weakness in Maly/Druid was, IMO, a mistake on Blizzard’s part.
I agree – we’ve never really recovered from KFT’s introduction of Druidstone. The class is far too durable to have so many reliable combo options.
What a bad and biased article. Sorry that i can’t take you seriously, if you whine about Mecha’thun decks being op.
Yes, the new Vs report is predicting they will totally drop off the ladder
The solution is simple: Add Dirty Rat to the Classic set
Thank you! This is what I am thinking since he rotated… This is the only card which should be nominate to move to standard…
This would be a simple, if inelegant, solution. I’m not sure if Blizzard should make a pattern of moving cards to the Classic set (and if they do it once, you can be sure that people will pressure them to do it again in the future), but there’s certainly an anti-combo hole in that set that hasn’t been filled.
In my opinion, it’s not so much combo decks that are the problem. Cool combo decks or plays (like setting up a massive VanCleef in Miracle Rogue for example) can be extremely fun for both the player using it and the player defending against it. The real problem in the current meta is the fact that most or all of the combo decks being played are OTK decks (using the cards you mentioned: Malygos, Shudderwock, and Mecha’thun) that have few ways to disable or otherwise meaningfully counter their effects. It’s definitely not enjoyable to play against a deck that can kill you no matter what one plays to defend against it. I loathe Shudderwock in particular because death seems to be inevitable thanks to all of the unblockable battlecries in that deck. Granted, I am a control player as well: two players answering each others’ threats and seeing who had the most effective use of their tools is my idea of a really fun time.
As for suggestions on nerfing Mecha’thun, I would (as crazy as it sounds) actually be liable to change the Deathrattle to a Battlecry (Mecha’thun would then have to not count itself as on the battlefield). This would completely disable Mecha’thun Priest, and would mean that decks that use Mecha’thun would have to get rid of even more cards before playing their killing combo. Mecha’thun would then be a completely standalone card, used only when everything else in one’s deck has failed rather than as a main win condition for the deck. I’d love to hear some thoughts on this idea, especially potential problems with said idea.
Changing Mecha’thun to Battlecry would make it an Auto-include in Control decks. It would be the backup win-con. I think it would be more obnoxious then.
I agree. There’s definately a difference between Combo Decks and OTK Decks and it should be noted. I’ve been a Rogue Player for as long as I can remember and generally, with the exception of Odd Rogue, Tempo & Quest Rogue (three Archetypes I never even tried) Rogue is defined by combo tactics. Let’s not paint Combo decks as the villains here.
Pogo-Rogue is a combo deck and it’s both fun & interactive for both players. You need to jump through hoops before you can even unleash your main strategy.
I tried to emphasize in the article that I was specifically talking about OTK combo decks. I’m fine with other “combos” existing, such as Hadronox, or giant VanCleefs, and even Cubelock (although that deck definitely deserved the nerfs it received).
Someone else already said it – but I don’t think swapping Mecha’thun to a battlecry is a nerf. It’s arguably a buff.
That would certainly make sense, that the battlecry would make Mecha’thun even more annoying. Perhaps the opponent’s side of the board might also need to be cleared before its deathrattle could be triggered? That doesn’t counter Warlock’s Cataclysm combo, though, and potentially makes the card outright useless (or extremely situational) for other classes…it’s difficult to nerf something so crazy without either completely changing it or rendering it completely useless, it seems…
It‘s not about aggro OR combo meta, right now it‘s aggro AND combo. Combo decks simply replaced control versions, as control decks loose to combo bevause it‘s easier to get the combo together as against aggro.
Second this article, as it is super boring to either aggro your opponent down or they outlast you long enough to gather their combo.
Both are auto-pilot strategies. I prefer smart use of trades and removals to gain control over the board, but board control isn‘t that important anymore it seems. Hello arena!
I think that’s a fair assessment of the meta. Traditionally, combo decks were kept in place by aggro decks – but these days it’s a coin flip, which just goes to show how much combo decks have improved. Control just loses, unless it’s Warlock.
the problem is not combo, the problem is that you can’t play cards in opponent turn, so basically you can’t say anything to combo, they just play solitaire by design
Alright so first off, I have to disagree with the notion that combo decks are everywhere on ladder, at least from my subjective experience (at rank 5-1, I see more aggro and deathrattle decks then combo). HSreplay stats won’t be too helpful, so until VS releases publishes their first report it’s impossible to have a more objective look at what the played percentages are. And I’m sure there are plenty of BAD combo decks that are being experimented with that will fall off soon. Some of which you mention.
Malygos Rogue is a tier 3 deck. Yes, it can potentially dish out something like 114 damage in optimal conditions, but lacks the stall and card draw to consistently pull it off before dying. Heck, Necrium Vial is even being cut since it’s too slow. If you want to beat up control decks as Rogue just play Miracle or Quest.
Eureka! Shaman is like… a tier 5 deck. It is objectively bad, and the most “effective” lists don’t even run Malygos.
Druid is the only class which can use Malygos and have an overall winrate above 50%. And yes, Maly Druid is one of the most frustrating decks to face in the game right now. However, that’s more due to Druid’s fantastic stall tools and armor gain. Malygos Druid just happens to be one of, if not the, best win condition for that powerful shell.
Tl;dr, Malygos isn’t the problem, Druid’s enabling tools are.
As for Shudderwock, I generally agree. Luckily, the potential to OTK with it will (hopefully) go away when the year of the Mammoth rotate.
And for Mecha’thun…. I disagree that 5 classes can RELIABLY pull it off. Only 3 can. Mecha’thun Rogue is like a 10 card combo or more. It sucks harder then Maly Rogue. Mecha’thun Warrior also sucks. Putting the Mecha’thun package in Warlock generally drops it’s winrate in both Even and Control variants, and in Warlock it feels more like a tech choice to beat grindy control decks in a tournament lineup. But this is something Even Warlock can do without Mecha’thun (though including it means you have to think less about the fatigue gameplan), and regular Control Warlock has Rin which serves a similar purpose.
That leaves Mecha’thun Druid and Priest. Druid can draw really quick and on paper looks the scariest but after playing it and looking at some stats I don’t really think it’s good, especially when Druid has much more powerful, consistent options.
That leaves Priest, and yeah, it’s annoying in Priest. But idk if it’s any stronger then OTK paladin was in KnC, and both decks have a similar gameplan.
And don’t forget that the biggest enablers of the actually viable Mecha’thun decks rotate out next year. Bloodbloom, Cataclysm, Hemet, Branching Paths, Ticking Abomination… all out the window. And that should put Mecha’thun into a similar place as current OTK paladin: sometimes good, but pretty bad overall.
Appreciate the comments! I’ll respond point-by-point as best I can.
Re: ladder experience. This is highly subjective – I’ve faced mostly combo decks, but I’m aware that there are successful aggro decks on ladder as well (as well as Deathrattle Hunter, which probably falls somewhere more along the lines of a midrange deck).
I wasn’t trying to comment on the strength of each individual deck I listed (I was just listing them for the sake of completeness), but I agree that Malygos and arguably Mecha’thun are bigger problems in Druid than in other classes due to how durable the class has become. Combination of armor gain and Spreading Plague has rendered the class even tougher to break through than Warrior most of the time. Rogue isn’t that durable, which is why it’s not as good – and I do think Eureka Shaman is a bit of a meme. Again, just listed it for completeness.
Seems like we agree about Shudderwock.
As for Mecha’thun: I initially had sections for each of the five Mecha’thun decks evaluating their strengths/weaknesses, but we had a post on the site a few days ago going over most of them, so I deleted them in favor of a more general discussion of the card. I agree that Rogue/Warrior aren’t great, I was moreso commenting on the fact that I have seen them work. It’s definitely a tech choice in Warlock moreso than an auto-include.
Druid and Priest are the two real problem classes IMO – Druid doesn’t have any of the core cards rotating (although they will lose a lot of durability, so perhaps that will help.) Priest does have them rotating, but it’s so consistent right now that I don’t know if Blizzard will be comfortable waiting that long.
Final point that a lot of other people mentioned down here and that I didn’t really emphasize enough in the article – I don’t so much have an issue with combo decks existing. I do have a problem with them being strong while there’s no great counterplay (especially for control decks), which is the current situation. “Play Warlock” isn’t great counterplay.
I personally prefer a combo meta to an agressive meta. Combo decks are inherently slower that aggressive decks, which means that control decks don’t just automatically lose. There’s also the fact that the aggro matchups are far more even, from what I’ve played. I can see where you’re coming from, but I much prefer this meta to Shamanstone.
I’ll actually disagree with you on the point regarding control decks. I’m primarily a control player, and I feel like I have a much higher chance to win against aggressive decks (by exhausting them) than against combo decks, where my decks likely don’t have the ability to burst them down quickly enough.
I agree that Shamanstone was a bad time, as was Druidstone in KFT.
@blizzard
I’d like to have reliable combo disruption for every class.
When you are at it, could you please reprint coldlight oracle for warriors only? (DMH)
Thank me later, kappa.
I personally love combo decks, firstly because someone has to think them first (Mecha’thun Priest combo was genious), secondly because you still have to balance the rest of the deck and thirdly because it feels as a great achievement to pull the combo off. Now, in my opinion, all archetypes should be somehow represented for a healthy balance of the game. There should be good aggro, combo, midrange and control decks. Control decks right now suffer if they are not Warlock. They obviously need a Dirty Rat kind of interaction, so give them that. Now, there’s still other effects which we can’t interact with: battlecries. Seriously. Deathrattles can at least be silenced or transformed. But we have no way of preventing or modifying a battlecry. Many combo decks would have a tough time if there was a neutral secret-type of card which read (the next battlecry does not trigger). Also, SECRETS! Only a few classes have access to them, I guess because of flavor. But there should be more of them, they greatly increase interactivity in this game.
You’re spot on that we need some more tools for control. As a control player, that’s likely where much of my frustrations come from right now. I don’t want to have to play warlock!
And people who like smashing Boulderfist Ogres into Chillwind Yetis can play Curvestone, er I mean Arena.
I prefer Controlstone tbh. Love your name though!
I understand where you are coming from but I think your aggravation with the nature of these combo decks in not that they exist or even that they are good, its that they can’t be interacted with. Having played MTG for a long, long time I’ve seen combo decks so degenerate they make you want to quit life, let alone quit the game.
But in MTG theres always a way to interact, at least in some manner. You can interact with your opponent’s hand, their graveyard and their deck, you can alter how the game operate (such as not letting creatures die but instead be removed from the game. Which in hearthstone would read “Deathrattles do not trigger” probably) and you can respond to what you’re opponent is doing.
Hearthstone has almost none of this kind of thing and each time we do see a way to combat combo decks, the player base laps them up. Dirty rat was played all over the place by any deck that could play it because it did something the game didn’t let you do before.
Tldr; Hearthstone needs hand attack, death manipulation, deck attack or some combination of all them. It won’t just get better because of them, it NEEDS them.
there was never an unhandled combo in MTG dude. Never. I played since Alpha MTG.
Memory Jar combo was so bad it was emergency banned in a week. Tolarian Academy/Time Spiral, banned. Flash + Protean Hulk, banned. Splinter Twin, banned.
More recently Saheeli Rai + Felidar Guardian (affectionately known as “Copy Cat”) received a ban in Standard a year ago.
MTG’s history is chock full of combo decks so oppressive that they needed bans to make their respective formats playable.
I don’t disagree with more cards being added that interact with your opponents hand to mess with combos, but they do need to be handled extremely carefully. 1 single card could completely derail all combo archetypes (for instance if demonic project was neutral I don’t think anyone would be playing combo decks full stop beyond the flexibility of the druid ones) which shouldn’t be the goal. I’m sure someone smarter than me could come up with some ideas, and maybe Blizzard will down the line, but I don’t think it’s some easy fix without completely destroying one of the 4 main types of deck that are played in Hearthstone, and alienating all those who enjoy those decks.
Here’s an idea that’s probably crap lol, how about offensive spells/minions or something that increase in attack power every turn that your opponent doesn’t play a minion. It might be be direct interaction, but something like that if balanced right could make the non combo player in a match feel like they are being empowered by the situation as well, while still retaining the tension involved in not knowing if they will be able to break through and use that increased potency. That in turn would mean that combo decks would have to run more minions, making their combos more difficult to pull off, and spells like demonic project would give opposing players a way to potentially derail a combo without it just being this 100& guaranteed win thing, as it might hit one of those supplementary minions.
Yep. Spot on. The loss of Dirty Rat was a dark day for Control v. Combo matchups.
… but isn’t that kind of the point in the rock, paper, scissors triangle?
Aggro > Combo > Control > Aggro
Though that’s been kinda breaking down with the last few expansions…
Hearthstone is at its best when it’s NOT blatantly rock-paper-scissors. I shouldn’t feel like I should just concede at the start of a match just because there are no cards I can put in my deck to actually combat what my opponent is doing. Cards like Dirty Rat are looked upon so fondly because, well, it’s a rare tech choice against combo decks. We don’t have any of those right now, besides Warlock.
And combo decks have become so durable (especially Druid, with all of its armor gain and taunts) that aggro decks stutter against them as well – so even if you’re in favor of a RPS ladder, like you said – it’s been breaking down.
The problem I had with Dirty Rat is that it was an omni-present tech choice – one card, available to everyone that could completely destroy any combo-deck. It kinda wasn’t worth playing with combo decks for a while as the Rat was everywhere. The thing with combo decks is that it takes a while to get all the pieces together so you know your opponent will have a rat to hand before you manage it… in the end I just started packing Angry Rag as an anti-rat tech (wasn’t a great choice but I really hated Dirty Rat and it *was* funny having your opponent concede when they’ve played the Rat too early and pulled Rag for you).
Gnomeferatu isn’t as bad as it’s got a larger pool of targets to hit so it’s less likely to destroy your combo – and it’s limited to the class you expect to mess with your hand/deck.
To be honest, I’d be fine with anti-combo tech if it was restricted like MSG “gangs” – Kabal would be a good choice I think (Mage, Warlock, Priest). Similar to MTG where it’s mainly Black/Blue that are going to play things to mess with your deck/hand or ability to play cards.
*disclaimer* I really enjoy combo decks but even I think Druid is somewhat broken at the moment. Combo decks, especially OTK combos, to my mind *should* be glass cannons – they punish Control players for being slow but leave themselves open to getting Zerged by aggro decks.
My favourite deck of all time was Malygos Miracle Rogue with Emperor Thaurissan – before Dirty Rat or Skulking Geist… I’m probably a bad person 🙂 It generally lost to aggro or if you got bad draw, but it was an absolute joy to Miracle through your deck and drop the Maly nuke soon after.
It’s definitely breaking down because you completely forgot about Midrange decks.
I understand the point but can’t say I agree with this.
In my opinion the meta has been improving largely over the years. By the end of the last expansion for example we had so many viable decks as never before. I find it much worse to lose a game against a “brainless” aggro deck in which all the person has to do is play a minion and attack face. However I understand that some people like to play like that so that is why in the end it is interesting to see the meta changing (one day I will be happy playing in a meta with combo/control but other day I will be complaining about the excessive amount of aggro decks).
Most times I tend to assume that people complaining about the meta now haven’t played back then when HS could as well be called shamanstone: heroes of totencraft. So it puzzles me when someone who knows the game well write an article like this (but, again, I have full respect over your opinion).
Another thing I thing intriguing is how people can’t see a classical card being essential in a meta and they already start to call for HoF. Following that logic is better to rotate the full set itself and them stop all this complaining. It’s better than seeing nerfs like the ones we saw for innervate and fiery axe.
I believe more counterplays and cards that allow you to interact with your opponents hand would be a more interesting alternative.
Appreciate the respectful feedback! I agree that more counterplay such as Dirty Rat is sorely needed – judging my the responses down here, I should have emphasized that more in the article. For reference: I primarily play control decks (especially Priest), which is why combo decks frustrate me so much right now. There’s nothing I can really do against them aside from annoying them with Psychic Scream.
As someone who also loves playing control I think there’s reason to be optimistic if we consider how much the game changed over the last two years.
I suspect that blizzard is afraid of powering up control since quite a lot of people are ”aggro fanatics” and, at least in theory, they are more friendly to new players (which is only a kind way to say they don’t require skill to pilot haha).
I believe that introducing more cards that allow to interact with the opponents hand would take the game to a next level but the question is…does blizzard want that?
I can totally see why you’re having a bad time if you predominantly play non Warlock control decks haha. I feel for you!
otk combo decks are pretty boring to play against. Combo decks like token druid, handlock/evenlock, etc. are fine for the game.
Move Dirty Rat to Core Set?
Yeah dirty rat for life!! I am enjoying playing some mechathun priest though.
i think Zoo is a sad, stupid and boring archetype and they gave it 3 more cards to make it even stronger: doubling imp, soul infusion and solarium. Same goes for odd paladin. plain dumb and boring.
An interesting read for sure. I have to say, as someone who loves playing combo decks, and doesn’t dislike playing against them either (I like the tension of the race to damage face, so long as it’s balanced enough) I do disagree. I’ll have to play around in this meta a long while more before I can say whether I think it is a good one or not, but I’m definitely enjoying myself. I also think that perhaps you were somewhat overstating the power of the current otk decks. It seems to me like you have an issue with them being viable at all due to their nature. I don’t think they are dominating though, there are just more of them than usual. All the best decks at this point are still aggro decks, and largely pre-existing ones with a few cards added. That for me is the bigger issue right now. The only Mecha’thun deck which looks to actually be strong is Priest, due to it being able to get through its deck so fast, and I suppose it’s alright in Druid as well.. it’s just that the other two Druid combo decks are much quicker.
So to be honest I think aggro decks are doing fine, there are just more insta kill decks around, but they aren’t performing badly against them. And if you enjoy combo decks like me then it’s obviously a pretty good time. The real issue for me is that the combo breaking card of the set was given to one class, and the most popular one at that. How do you get more people playing classes other than Warlock? Not by giving them Demonic Project you don’t. I’m an average player myself but I read (or perhaps it was Kripp in a recent video) a few days back that around half of the games he played at legend during that particular day were against Warlock, what with zoo being as strong as it is, and that class having the only control deck that can directly counter combo decks. Anyway, I’m having fun with the meta, and the only combo decks I’m seeing played well and relatively frequently around the mid ranks are Mecha’thun Priest (which potentially is a slight problem, they might have missed this combo… if it gets too out of hand I would think about nerfing Hemet so he busts everything from 4 mana and below, so you have to draw the abominations before playing him) and the 2 main druids. I’ve spent so many of my years playing control in Hearthstone and barfing over the ability of the best aggro decks to just roll over me, while still having fun, that I don’t feel too sorry for the other camp if the tables have turned a little lol.
That Hemet nerf suggestion is an interesting idea!
I’ve said it elsewhere in the comments, but I’ll say it again here: I’m primarily a control player. I much prefer facing aggro decks and exhausting them over facing combo decks and being unable to kill them before they OTK me.
I accidentally replied to you on someone elses comment so I’ll reply here again as it makes more sense :p, I totally get why you’re having a bad time then! For non-Warlock control decks this is likely the most polarised meta the game has seen (aggro you have a chance vs combo you always loose), and that coin toss situation isn’t fun at all. Even if you are playing a bad match-up, you always want to at least feel like you have a chance to pull off something special if you play a really good, scrappy game an get a little luck with your draw. I remember feeling a similar way when Un’goro released and I was maining control Priest, and just getting hopelessly murdered by Quest Rogues. And that was just 1 deck! Unlike the current plethora of combo decks we have no, regardless of whether many of them struggle against aggro. So I totally get where you’re coming from, and I hope it improves for you. I’m lucky that it’s not effecting me in that I am mostly playing and enjoying Malygwaggle Druid and Bomb hunter, with a sprinkling of Mecha’thun and Topsy Turvy Priest thrown in there.
Wake up blizzard?
Well we do have demonic project now which is great but need something neutral – then its problem solved.
I think having combo decks is definitely a good thing for hearthstone, but the real problem comes from them not being interactive. Like I’m cool with otk combos if there are ways to interact with the deck. Hearthstone is just way too linear and doesn’t have good ways to manipulate hand or deck which is what the real problem is. Lack of counter